Archways' Threads

Narrator 00:02
Welcome to Archways' Threads, a show focusing on the threads of family and recovery support services that help make up the tapestry of life in recovery. Join us as we share stories from peers and participants in the field and practice of peer recovery support and family support and strengthening. And now your host, Archways' CEO, Michelle Lennon.

Michelle Lennon 00:25
Hello, everyone. I am Michelle Lennon. We are wrapping up our conversation today with Carina Raya, and we hope that you have enjoyed this series with her, and we look forward to seeing you next month. Thank you.

Michelle Lennon 00:41
We talk about integration.

Carina Raya 00:43
I was literally saying that word in my head.

Michelle Lennon 00:45
Yeah.

Carina Raya 00:46
I was like, integrating like you as like yourself doing drugs, compared to like you yourself in recovery, and like, getting those two to sort of, like, integrate.

Michelle Lennon 00:56
Yeah.

Carina Raya 00:56
It's such a journey.

Michelle Lennon 00:58
Yeah.

Carina Raya 00:59
It can be really long.

Michelle Lennon 01:00
Yeah.

Carina Raya 01:01
And sometimes it feels like I'm still not all the way there.

Michelle Lennon 01:05
Well, and I think the relevant is the Recovery Coach Academy, which is a curriculum written for the Connecticut community for addiction recovery, years ago--like, it's probably 20 years old now or something. But I remember, you know, they talk about stages in recovery, and integration coming far down the road. I sometimes say it for my staff. I said, "Do you remember what, you know, how your thought processes used to work when you were a year out, six months out?" I'm like, "Tell me why you have expectations that this person was going to be 100% honest with you right now, if this was a coping mechanism that worked for them for the past 10 years?" And we talk about the stages in recovery, and that honesty grows over time, you know. "Tell me what you--why you're having these expectations, and you're frustrated right now." Because usually it's about our coaches' own stuff.

Carina Raya 01:39
Interesting. I mean for myself, I know like, my boyfriend that I started dating, I don't know, like five or six years ago now--when I first met him, I feel I experienced a lot of frustration because he was one of the only people that I currently know that didn't know me when I used drugs, and doesn't really know anything about recovery. And it's been--especially in the beginning, it was, like, really painful. Even now I'm like, "Ooh, it still kind of feels painful," because I don't know how to convey to somebody that that person, you know--I feel like I really don't care enough and like I...she matters a lot to me, and I don't know how to get her to matter to somebody that didn't know her or, like, that doesn't know about recovery or what it's like. And I think maybe in the, like, in all the recovery world and programs and stuff that I've done, that's not something I've been ever prepared for, was not feeling like my prior self was valued.

Michelle Lennon 03:05
Yes, you know, it's so interesting, because I think as a person yourself, you can look back at yourself and say, "Well, boy, was I an idiot for doing this or that," or some of the behavior. Like, I quit drinking because my behaviors were out of control. That was the thing, like I did things I wouldn't share with anybody that I wasn't proud of, you know, when I was under the influence. Right? So I chose to quit drinking. When I look back, or at least successively--like, I can have a drink now and then--my situation never rose to the level of addiction, problematic use all through college, basically. And I when I decided to stop, I just stopped. So, but I don't--like, I can talk about my past self, all I want. Somebody else does it, though, and I get really upset, you know. So I think, like, I still value myself, even as the kid I was, you know.

Carina Raya 04:02
As you should!

Michelle Lennon 05:56
You know, but it's interesting that somebody else looking at that problem child, like, yeah, it does. It's a sensitive thing, right?

Carina Raya 05:56
Yeah, yeah. It's like, some of my best qualities today are the qualities that got me into a lot of trouble when I was younger, and sort of reconciling, you know, that like, me being, like, super headstrong and independent--

Michelle Lennon 05:56
Yeah.

Carina Raya 05:56
Is what is getting me to, you know, some important ultimate goal today, but it's also the thing that got me into drugs, you know, when I was younger. I don't know. Like, it's the same quality. It did different things, but I can't, you know, hate on the person that I was, or I can't hate on that quality, because I still have it. It's still me.

Michelle Lennon 05:56
Yeah, and like you said, the value of who you are should have been there when society, school, the private program, or whatever didn't see it.

Carina Raya 05:56
Mm hm.

Michelle Lennon 05:56
Yeah. And I think that is something that peer support workers, family support specialists, you know, some medical providers, some psychiatrists, some different people, like cafeteria workers, that see the value beyond the behavior, how that's huge. And, you know, thinking about that, like, the memories that last are how people made you feel.

Carina Raya 05:56
Yeah.

Michelle Lennon 05:56
And when we value each other, it feels good.

Carina Raya 05:56
Yeah, right.

Michelle Lennon 05:56
You know, and just thinking, even like--you know, some of the young people that I work with now are kids that I knew in elementary school. And it is, it's that thing--how did I make them feel then is a reflection on how they'll treat me today. And usually it's with, you know, kindness and respect, and it's only because I gave them kindness and respect. And it shouldn't be that difficult--

Carina Raya 06:10
Right.

Michelle Lennon 06:10
For us. And you know, sharing a story, there are people that will use it against you. There are people that will point to it. Like we said, stigma's alive and well, unfortunately.

Carina Raya 06:21
It is.

Michelle Lennon 06:21
Bias, prejudice, all of that. And it's interesting, I think, where it's even more concerning is when they hold the flag of support up, but in the background, they're sabotaging everything you do, you know. It is. It's like, you have to be wise when you're sharing your story. And what you put in it, sharing is for a purpose, because you know, just thinking about--you know, somebody else that was kind of in the same boat with they were being used for, advertised for a recovery clinic, and telling their story, and had written the whole thing up. It had gone; the final draft came out. She asked me to read it, tell her what I thought. And in her story, she had shared that she had an abortion. And I had read it, and I just asked her the question. I said, "You know, this is up to you, but I just want to bring this up, that your grandmother's gonna see this. And you told me a little bit about your grandmother and how much she means to you. Do you think that she'll be hurt by this, or do you think she'll see you differently?" Right, and she was like, "I never even thought about that. Never even thought about that, and just, pull that out." I said, "When you think about what the goal of the story is, that could be important to some women who read this because that, you know, may be another reason why people start drinking or, you know, manage pain, if they have, you know, attachment issues and things like that that can come into play, because mental health comes from all different places. But the purpose of the article is about how this has helped you in your addiction health. It may not have to be there and still have the same impact that you're going for."

Carina Raya 07:49
Yeah.

Michelle Lennon 07:49
I said, "But I'm not telling you what to write at all."

Michelle Lennon 07:52
"But just to think about that." So I do think sometimes, when we're providing advocacy, it's always good, like, if you're new at it, you know, because--like, you were saying you were new at it in your 20s, and definitely felt objectified by what you were sharing--and just have somebody that's done it before kind of look it over. Practice.

Carina Raya 07:53
Yeah.

Carina Raya 08:12
Yeah, I was saying it was something that I wish I would have done earlier on. Now it happens, like, automatically, because it's, you know, been a long time of me doing this. But earlier on, I wish that I would have written down my whole, like, everything and then taken, like, themes--

Michelle Lennon 08:33
Yes.

Carina Raya 08:34
You know, and made some, like, bullet points. Because every time you share your story, right, you are sharing slightly different things, because there's a slightly different reason. And like, in the beginning, I thought that it was like being disingenuous to not tell everyone everything. And I think that, you know, when we're doing recovery, that like, hyper-honesty is sort of, like, a defense mechanism, because you're so used to people thinking that you're lying, that you're like, I'm gonna have to tell everybody everything, all down, so they don't think I'm hiding anything. I felt disingenuous by not sharing everything.

Michelle Lennon 09:10
Mm hm.

Carina Raya 09:10
But you're not being disingenuous. You are, like, sharing with a purpose. So my story involves, like, mental health stuff and chaotic drug use. So if I'm talking more about mental health, like, I'm going to include much more details about mental health. If I'm speaking mainly on recovery, like, I'm going to focus more on the recovery aspect. It doesn't mean that I have two different stories. It's one story, but different things to focus on. You know, you didn't hear me today talk about, like, my reproductive health, even though that's been in my story, you know what I mean. So being able to have, like a--I think you have, like a Google Doc, or something--like, some sort of, like written, easily-editable document, either, like, on your phone or like a laptop or whatever, where you have, like, your whole story. And then before you go to share it, be like, "What is the goal of sharing at, like, the podcast tomorrow?" And like, you know, write it down, because we have access to great technology these days. Like, talk to ChatGPT. Like, have a discussion, and be like, "Here's my whole story," because ChatGPT is not going to tell anyone. The robot knows everything about me. Whatever. And be like, "Hey, this is the goal of what I need to, like, get across to people tomorrow. Like, what are some bullet points from my story that, you know, you think are important, that people should hear." And I think that that is a really important tool for people just getting started on this journey. It's definitely something I wish I would have done, you know, and been, been told to do, but, you know, 10 years ago.

Michelle Lennon 10:45
Yeah, and I think it's good to have a mentor too, because I think--so Karen Welford was my former boss out, a family support specialist. She retired, and she's actually the one that helped really start the centers and stuff, and I--even today. Like we just went and trained at Head Start in Massachusetts a little bit ago, and still, like, I'm learning from her all the time. She is somebody that I trust. And she can look at my materials and say, "Oh, this can probably be taken out." Or, "How about adding some of this?" Because she knows the audience of Head Start way better than I do. You know, she did technical support for them for years. And that's the thing, like, when we do advocacy, we share our story. It's always for a purpose. It's always about the audience that we're in front of, right, whether it's an individual, and--you know, I think of a reception at a doctor's office. If I'm advocating to get this person services, and it hasn't gone well, like, I might be asking to talk to, like, the Nurse Manager or something, you know. Then how I'm sharing the story may be just for that person, you know. And because I can say, "Oh, this person needs counseling. This is a little bit of their story." Or I can say, "This person needs to get into counseling today, because DCYF is going to take her children if they do not--if she does not get this paper signed." Well, the Nurse Manager, who can sign me the paper says, "Yep, we'll get her on the books as soon as possible." And sometimes, like sharing the story, whether it's mine or sharing with somebody else like that, it's like, "What is the goal in front of you?"

Carina Raya 12:21
Right.

Michelle Lennon 12:21
You know? So it can be, you know, literally advocacy, we call it, when it's, like, for an individual like that. But when we're talking to a bigger audience, you know, I'm talking about harm reduction principles. It's like, go back to basics, you know. What is the motorcycle helmet used for? You know, to protect my noggin, so if I do hit the ground, I don't end up with a brain injury.

Carina Raya 12:41
I know.

Michelle Lennon 12:41
And then, and I'll share it. Like I've been into three motorcycle accidents. I still have my head.

Carina Raya 12:47
You know.

Michelle Lennon 12:48
It's awesome.

Carina Raya 12:49
There you go!

Michelle Lennon 12:50
But yeah, because there is a lot to it, and I do think sometimes people get excited because they want to help, and just don't think of all these different repercussions that could happen.

Carina Raya 13:00
And speaking of repercussions, definitely something that I had not mentioned at all yet, but you said, "audience." So it's been, you know, 10 years or something like that, that I've been sharing my story, and one thing to be prepared for--but again, there was no lead back in the day that was like, "Hey, this is going to happen. There are going to be people that you don't know that are going to come at you on Facebook. They're going to send you email. They might find you. They might recognize you in public." I've never had anyone say anything negative. Well, I'll be clear about that. But people will say really wonderful things, which 99.999% of the time is lovely, but there are--and this happened early, early on--when my story was sort of co-opted. There were a few people that heard my story, not from me, heard it from somebody else. And apparently that--at least, it seemed like that other person really talked me up. And these people met me, and they were like, "Oh my gosh. Your story changed my life." And they really, they wanted, they thought maybe I had all the answers, and especially with--you know, in 2014 when I had only a few years of, you know, recovery, like I did not have the answers.

Carina Raya 14:22
And when someone comes to you for those answers, and you are like, I don't know, two days out of recovery, like, knowing how to navigate that is challenging. What I did was I ghosted people, because I had no idea what to do.

Michelle Lennon 14:33
Yeah.

Carina Raya 14:38
Yeah. I'm like, "I don't know how to deal with these people. Like, I need to just walk away and not talk to them," which if you feel like that, that's also totally acceptable. Like, I don't, I haven't experienced any negative repercussions from, you know, ghosting people that thought I was cool. Do I wish maybe I could have, like, gone back and, sort of like, maintained some kind of relationship? Like, there's one person I'm thinking of who I recently saw got like a coaching certificate, not recovery coaching, but just like wellness coaching. And I think, from my personal experience, the wellness industry can be a little bit predatory on people in recovery. And do I wish I still had a relationship with this person to kind of reach into her world and be like, you know? Because she was like, kind of looking at me like I could be a mentor, and I dipped. But if I had been able to maintain that role, could I go back in now and be like, "Hey, you know, I know this. You know, you did this thing. Like, I just want to check in and see how it's, oh, how's it going, you know?" But like, I don't have really any--you know, it would be weird if I did that now. So I think being aware of the number of people that you are going to positively impact, and sort of be able to deal with that.

Michelle Lennon 14:40
A little--

Michelle Lennon 15:53
Yeah.

Carina Raya 15:55
And also, I mean, people may ask you to do favors for them. You know, I had a woman who was my yoga student whose son, you know, used drugs and was in jail, and she asked me to write him pen pal letters, which I said yes. It was great. It was fine. I would still say yes today. I'm still in touch with the mom. You know, the son ended up losing his life a few years ago. And you know, I keep him in my mind a lot as I sort of, like, move through and do this advocacy stuff. I think we all have, like, those people we, you know, sort of carry around. We're like, wow, we really love them, and they're not here anymore. Because where else other than the recovery world, can you be in your like, 20s and 30s, and half of your friends are dead? The military. Yeah. So just knowing how to navigate those people who are really grateful for your story, because on the surface, that seems like maybe one of the easiest things to do. Somebody comes up, and they're like, "Wow, thank you. Your story is so cool." And, like, you can be like, "Wow, that's a really nice thing to say," and you don't have to say anything else.

Michelle Lennon 17:05
Yeah.

Carina Raya 17:06
You don't have to do anything for anybody. If you want to, that's great. But, you know, go talk to your own mentor, your sponsor, your coach, whatever, to maybe think about the implications first. Like, keep talking to people about it.

Michelle Lennon 17:21
It's especially challenging if somebody has a reoccurrence, since they've done that advocacy too. And like, we've lost people in our field in New Hampshire, people that were very special to us in the recovery world, that were very instrumental in, like, rolling out the recovery centers. And huge--like, one person in particular close to my heart, this gentleman I loved, Dean LeMire, who, we kind of mirrored each other when we were starting our centers. We were both in, like, church basements. We both were getting, like, small grants to get started. We were both volunteering and kind of, you know, testifying at the State House. You know, we'd run into each other all the time. And he actually worked for Harbor Care at one point, so he was working with me. You know, I used to tell him I used to hate seeing coming because we were doing the CAP--we were doing the CAPRSS accreditation at the time, the Council on Accreditation for Peer Recovery Support Services, and it was a real heavy lift for us, because we were small. It was like three of us working, you know, as fast as we could, but they have so many requirements, and he was the one in charge of, like, making sure we were on track and stuff, but--I loved him dearly, but he was held up on posters as, like, you know for, like, 211, and all of that. And I think a lot of us recognized that he was struggling, but it was almost like he knows everything you know and--ah, it's painful, you know. Like you said, there are people that we carry with us.

Michelle Lennon 18:45
You know, and he's definitely one who was such an advocate for harm reduction. You know, he actually co-authored a curriculum, Recovery Coaching and Harm Reduction Pathway, with Jim Wuelfing, who will actually be at the upcoming Recovery, Inclusion, Community, and Harm Reduction conference that SOS puts on. And every year, Jim is there. Yeah, just thinking back like that, we also have to be conscious, like, those people that do advocacy, when we run into them, you know, just because they did advocacy before doesn't mean they might be having a bad day or a bad time, you know. And we want to be conscious that they're people.

Carina Raya 18:47
Yeah.

Carina Raya 19:21
Yeah. I mean, when I had had that really bad year with dealing with that organization and the discrimination, I definitely felt like there was a lack of support, you know, for like--I don't live in New Hampshire. I work in New Hampshire. I'm from New Hampshire, but like, I was like, I'm not dialed in. Like, who do I go to for help? Who do I call? Like, I don't even know what to do. And I think that's even less of a barrier though, than like, knowing who you can call, but feeling like you can't.

Michelle Lennon 19:56
Yeah.

Michelle Lennon 19:57
Because you don't want to disappoint them or, you know.

Carina Raya 19:57
And it's funny.

Carina Raya 20:01
Yeah. Which is so weird. Like, why? Why do we think in our minds that it would be disappointing, you know, like?

Michelle Lennon 20:09
it's because stigma works on all of us.

Carina Raya 20:13
I know, I'm not disappointed in you, whoever's on the other side of this. Like, I'm not disappointed in you. If you do drugs, you're still awesome.

Michelle Lennon 20:21
Yeah, yeah. It's interesting because, you know, running a recovery center, we've had staff that have had re-ocurrence. And one of the things I say in our trainings to people is, "Find out what your agency policies are, because a lot of times they're not recovery friendly, you know, if somebody has a recurrence." And like, we have a whole process of--you know, for three months, your job is absolutely not in jeopardy, like if you need to go to treatment, if you just need some extra support. How do we right your ship? You know, that kind of thing. And depending on what they're doing for work, might change job duties for a while, you know, because ultimately, we want to make sure our staff are good, you know, and okay, and that they can come to us and can talk to us, but it's not like that everywhere.

Carina Raya 21:04
Yeah.

Michelle Lennon 21:04
You know, and I think that that's part of the, you know, that dichotomy or division in the recovery stream you get. Well, if you're not in recovery--even that is like wrong thinking.

Carina Raya 21:12
You're in and out of recovery.

Carina Raya 21:12
I mean, like, you know, I don't know, like, 28 days out of the month or something, but Duolingo has a streak freeze. So like, "Hey, if you're in recovery and you are on, like, a 500-day streak, and then you go out and, like, I don't know, have a beer, do some drugs, whatever it is, you can use a streak freeze. It's okay."

Michelle Lennon 21:12
There you go.

Michelle Lennon 21:21
Yeah. Because we don't say, like, you're in and out of any other disease, right? It's like you're either doing well or you're not doing well, or you're showing symptoms or you don't have symptoms, or you're in remission or you're not, you know. And I think about that that, like, substance use is not a symptom of recovery, it's a symptom of substance use disorder, right? And it's like, but people in recovery can have re-occurrences of use and still be in recovery, you know, because it doesn't take away everything. And I think that's one of the other issues, like you were talking about sobriety, assuming that you mean abstinence-based.

Carina Raya 21:58
Right.

Michelle Lennon 21:59
No other substances at all, right? And thinking about how we frame that, you know, with, like, the white key tag, like you're--it's like you're starting all over, that feeling.

Carina Raya 22:12
I think about that counting thing with AA. And I love AA. It's like an anarchist organization. Like it's so cool that it's not corporate, and like it exists all over the world. It's literally run for the people, by the people. And I think that's like, the coolest thing ever. So I'm definitely not down on AA at all. But the whole counting thing, you know, kind of drives me nuts, because you know, as people who have used substances--defined sometimes as addicts, you know--we can, you know, maybe be addicted to things, like counting, and it's like, geez, we get so wrapped up in numbers. Like, think about, like, Duolingo. Do you have a Duolingo streak?

Michelle Lennon 22:53
Can I just tell you, I'm studying Chinese. And I posted it on Facebook and had something like 495 days or something. And tell me this isn't, like, typical right? They changed--they upgraded the app. The day they did it, I'm like, "I'm done!" But yes, I was addicted to numbers with Duolingo.

Carina Raya 23:16
You know, the thing with Duolingo is right, like, I do my Duolingo almost every single day.

Michelle Lennon 23:22
Yeah.

Carina Raya 23:23
Your recovery doesn't end because you do drugs. Like, yeah, use the streak freeze. It's fine. Like, keep counting. Like, don't give up, you know.

Michelle Lennon 23:51
That's awesome. That's awesome. It has been like, such a pleasure. I just realized that we've been talking for a while. Well, thankfully, like, our producer is awesome, and she will divide this up into multiple episodes, I'm sure. Yeah, any final thoughts that you want to share?

Michelle Lennon 24:09
They're also prescribing pain meds to people in recovery.

Michelle Lennon 24:09
Yeah. Agreed.

Carina Raya 24:09
A great closing statement.

Michelle Lennon 24:09
It has been such a pleasure.

Carina Raya 24:09
Thank you so much.

Carina Raya 24:09
I'm sure I'll think of them as soon as I'm like, halfway home.

Carina Raya 24:09
So I would love to be able to in my final thoughts, you know, I want to keep up this advocacy as I go through medical school, and I would love to be able to broaden my audience to pre-med and medical students, because they often are very disconnected from what recovery is or who is in recovery, but they are the ones treating you. They are writing your prescriptions. They are providing your Suboxone, your methadone, your naltrexone, vivitrol, whatever it is, your freaking fluoxetine. They're the ones prescribing it.

Carina Raya 24:09
Right. Exactly, and there needs to be--there needs to be more me talking to them. That's my idea.

Michelle Lennon 24:09
And, yeah, if anybody has any thoughts, you know, I can always reach out to Carina, as she's interning.

Carina Raya 24:09
Don't hesitate to reach out.

Michelle Lennon 24:09
Yeah, she's interning in New Hampshire for a little bit longer with Harbor Care.

Carina Raya 24:09
Yes. Yes.

Michelle Lennon 24:09
And so we do have access to her for a little bit of time. So again, like, thank you. Thank you for sharing about the perils.

Carina Raya 24:09
Thank you for inviting me.

Michelle Lennon 24:09
Yeah, this is great. This is great. All right. Well, we'll see you next time. Thank you.

Michelle Lennon 24:12
Well, we can always add on the half, when you're--that took care of them.

Carina Raya 24:18
You know, I--one piece of advocacy that I have not been able to get into, that--everyone out there has their story, you know, the lived experience advisory, now we've gotten into the nursing classes and stuff. I've never been able to advocate with medical students. And it's like, people are--maybe your editor can, like, edit this part out, like, knock shit out; bleep people at home--because I'm always like, "Guys, can we go to a medical school?" They're like, "There's things that are more important. They're the first point of contact." I'm like, "Shut up." I think advocating to medical students and pre-medical students is really important, because even if you don't view them as your first point in contact, they are where the buck stops, and we don't learn about recovery in any kind of important, you know, granular detail as a pre-medical or as a medical student.

Michelle Lennon 25:21
interesting. No?

Carina Raya 25:22
And with as prevalent as it is in the United States, with people dying at a rate of 9/11 happening every two days--there's one medical school class worth of students that dies every year by suicide, one medical school class. That's like 200 people.

Michelle Lennon 25:37
Yeah.

Narrator 27:04
Thank you for listening to Archways' Threads. If there is a topic you'd like to see us cover, email us at podcast@archwaysnh.org or call us at 603-960-2128. Visit our website at archwaysnh.org to learn more about the Archways family of recovery and family resource centers.